Episode 66: Supporting Teachers to Thrive with April Brown

For this episode I invited April Brown, our amazing director of learning and development here at Educator Forever, onto the podcast to talk with me about one of our very favorite subjects, which is how to support teachers to truly thrive.

The idea for this episode came after I had a discussion with the head of an Edtech company who thought that teachers should be happy now that things are back to normal after COVID. That's so far from the reality that we're seeing within our Educator Forever community. So April and I talked about what's not being seen outside of the world of teaching and what would really help them.

 
 
 
 
 

Read the transcript for this episode:

Welcome to educator forever, where we empower teachers to innovate education. Join us each week to hear stories of teachers expanding their impacts beyond the classroom and explore ways to reimagine teaching and learning.

LILY: Today I've invited April Brown, our amazing director of learning and development here at educator forever, onto the podcast to talk with me about one of our very favorite subjects, which is how to support teachers to truly thrive. Welcome, April. So glad to have you here today.

APRIL: Yay, I'm so happy to be here again with you, Lily. Yay.

LILY: Well, I feel like we spend so much of our time talking about and thinking about how to really, truly support teachers. Today, I invited you on the podcast to continue that conversation. And really setting the stage of like this state of teaching, which I know many teachers are listening to this right now. And of course, you know, everything is different for everybody. But I recently had a conversation with somebody who is head of an edtech company. And he was like,”Oh, I feel like after COVID, like things are back to normal for teachers, like teachers should be really happy and settled in their jobs. What's the matter with teachers?” That's so far from the reality that we're seeing within our Educator Forever community. And, you know, interactions with teachers show there is so so so much that needs to change. And this idea of like, going back to normal is so problematic to me, in many ways, because first off, like, when was there ever a time that teachers were truly supportive? And second, like, no things are really, really hard right now, especially in the after effects of the pandemic and all the things. So, first wanted to just like, set the stage and check in with you about how you're seeing in your own work, the state of teaching,

APRIL: I love that you brought up this example, because I think that it really speaks to the constant undervaluing of educators to begin with. And I think that that shines a light on it so much that this is a, like a head person, a leader of an ad tech company, that is creating resources that educators and children access. And the disconnect from understanding what teachers are really going through is so like, smack in our faces. So I would say, No, teachers are not back to normal. And I don't think that there's ever been a time when teachers are really compensated or valued, or really had their voices amplified in what's important for the profession of teaching and the education system in general. So that's like the first thing that comes to mind to me.

LILY: Yes, absolutely. And it's like, I mean, it just makes me think of like, if we really did value and support teachers, like how many things would be different within our whole education system. And so thinking about that as like foundationally, something we've never seen before. And like how many things were frustrated with or students are frustrated with, or families are frustrated with in our education system? Like, what can we change by really supporting and empowering teachers? And I think that that is just so beyond this idea of like normal, or like what fits into this system right now that it's hard to even see a different reality. But I do think a different reality is possible, if we can allow ourselves to really like, first see what's happening? And then really think about what it means to support teachers and educators as the whole humans that they are.

APRIL: Yes, I love that. And I feel like it goes back to what you just said about whose voices should be amplified and where we should find out the solution. And naturally for us, as both former classroom teachers, and educators who have stayed in education in a variety of capacities over the years to try to drive change, we know that and that's what we do in Educator Forever. In our community we are acknowledging that teachers are whole humans. We are acknowledging that teachers deserve more in so many different aspects of their lives, from the freedom to teach things that matter to creating joy filled classrooms, to being able to take a few days off because you're sick and not feeling terrible about it to being able to see yourself reflected in society and then in the media in ways that feel empowering and supportive. It all goes back to that, right?

LILY: Yes, absolutely. We spend so much of our days talking to teachers and I think they're just setting the stage there too. There are so many things that just stand out to me like I've been out of the classroom for over a day. Okay, now and things were definitely challenging in their own way when I was in the classroom, but I feel like things have just gotten more and more challenging. You know, we hear people coming to us who love being teachers. When you go into teaching, you feel called to do so in some way, and you feel excited about it. And I think that is part of the problem. Like that was what makes it so complicated. Sometimes it's because you feel like, well, “I love being a teacher,” and like, “My identity is tied to being a teacher.” But there are so many things that are making it impossible to do. And I think because of that, like love, many of us stay in this toxic situation for a long time. And so it's almost like peeling apart what you love and what you don't love. But I feel like a lot of the people that we work with, and like me included, you know, are like I love being a teacher, but I don't love all of this other stuff. And that can get really complicated to unravel the difference between like, what you really love and what's not working for you?

APRIL: Yes, I love that idea of thinking about, you know, and that's what we do. We have our community members constantly reflect on what they love. What inspired you to become a teacher in the first place? And then what do you want to let go of? And so those, you know, the letting go of can be so difficult. And we talk about this all the time when you're still working within a toxic system. Often nobody within that environment is able to see the light. And so that sort of like what you know, the ecosystem of the Educator Forever community is all about showing you that all of those feelings are valid. But there are different ways there are current career pathways, there are ways for you to stay empowered, and stay in education, so that you don't have to get rid of all of the things that you love. And the reason that you became a teacher in the first place like because that is like you said, your identity. But what is no longer serving us is what is causing harm. And just to circle back to the beginning of our conversation, it's like teachers teaching throughout through the pandemic had lost colleagues struggling with mental health stuff, students that have, you know, like, just been really, really struggling academically, because of all the different changes from online platforms, etc. They never were able to heal from that either. Right? So there's like all of these, like, the more that you pile on and pile on and pile on, at what point? Is it like, “Hey, we need to step to take a step back, we need to pause, we need to like work on the whole human.” But where is that space within the education system?

LILY:: Yeah, and for administrators to or like homeschooled school districts, right? It's like, there's just so much and layers upon layers upon layers. And I do love this idea of who can see the light? Right? Like, where can we imagine different possibilities, you know, like, if you're in, and I think that's something we see with teachers all the time to where it's like, you see what's in front of you, and what's normal to your life, right, like, you see the possibility of retirement or pension, or the salary scale, you know, you see the things that people tell you of like, why you should stay in the classroom, and being so immersed in that it's really hard to see other possibilities. And I think that's true for teacher career paths, but also things we do in the classroom. You know, through our curriculum program, people come in teaching in a very, like, teacher directed way, in a way that's not the most engaging for kids that's not based on research that we know really works for, you know, effective learning environments. But it's because everyone around them is telling them to teach this way. And so it's again, that like, detangling, of what we know works, and what we feel aligned to, to like things that we do or think because we've just been told that, or that's what's around us.

APRIL: Yes. It makes me think of being boxed in. Right. You're in this box. And when you're in the box for so long. It's hard for you to see your way out. But deep down, I think we all know what's good for kids. And we know that standardized testing is not something that's healthy and makes us feel good as we're like being told to teach to the test. We know that curriculum that is not accessible, that is not you know, designed with, like, pedagogical practices that are inclusive and responsive. That's not cool. So I do think that it's so interesting to reflect on what teachers really need, you know, like, why it really supports teachers.

LILY: Yes, absolutely. And I think that's part of the rub to have like I felt this was truly one of the reasons why I left teaching because like what my students needed, and I taught at a very, like Open School where I had lots of freedom and agency to do things, but still, what my students needed was out of the realm of what I could give them. And it felt like all that I could do was like, try my best. But I was like, what they really need is, like, less kids in this class, one on one aids for some people, you know, different learning experiences for them, but I couldn't plan 12 different, you know, versions of a lesson every day for every subject. And so that frustration and like I had it good, right? Like, there are people who are being told to teach curriculum that like, truly teaches lies. And so, you know, having that situation of being like, I am not teaching in a way that I know, works well, like it's not aligned, right. And so I think that frustration is real to being told to talk things that are not ideal, but you don't believe in being part of a system that like, doesn't truly support kids or teachers, is really, really exhausting and harder. And so just acknowledging like all the many things that go into these feelings that many teachers are having,

APRIL: Yes, I love that you brought up the many different circumstances and realities that educators have. But also, when it becomes like that you are no longer okay with doing this thing, because it is completely separate from your values. So like if what you just mentioned about teaching lies, or teach it, you know, there's a banned book that you read in the classroom, because it's LGBTQ affirming. And then all of a sudden, there's a board member who wants you out of the classroom like this is happening locally, this is happening, like all over the United States right now. And like, that's not okay. And teachers deserve better. We kids deserve better.

You know? And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's a whole, it's a whole lot to consider, and it's a critical conversation to have. Absolutely,

LILY: Absolutely. And so I think that's like, there's the content part of it, right, like, if like, what you're being asked to teach, or how you're being told to teach, there's the like, career part of it, of feeling like you have to stay because of your pension or retirement or whatever it is, or commitment to the kids like this whole guilt that goes around, like any idea of changing your career or leaving. And then I think there's some just the realities of being a classroom teacher in the day to day and not being able to make ends meet. Like, if that was my other reason for leaving, like, I could not make enough money, I was having a baby. And I could not make enough money to make it make sense to be able to pay for daycare, when I was teaching. It just like made it $0. And so I was like, well, this isn't gonna work, and I want to stay home with my baby. But I think, you know, we see so many teachers really struggling to make ends meet by no fault of their own, like, they do not make enough money to support children, you know, especially like single mothers with multiple children, like, it is not possible. And so we see many teachers, you know, turning to DoorDash, or being Uber drivers or things like that, and one of the main reasons that Educator Forever exists is really to show teachers that like, yes, it's a reality that many of us need to make some extra money. But we can do that in a way that really elevates our expertise and uses our experience as an educator to ideally change some of these things that are not working in education. So just acknowledging like the financial impact of being a teacher is not sustainable. And that goes into all sorts of like emotional impacts, too, because if you're constantly stressed about working many different jobs, you know, supporting your family and making your and making ends meet, then all sorts of things collapse. And that's like, not a good model for kids to see teachers constantly struggling, like it shows them what we value.

APRIL: Yes, you've said a lot there. I feel like it reminds me of a few years ago when one of my very favorite friends and teachers colleagues that I talked with back in Michigan, she was transferring from schools and she had had like over two decades of teaching experience, and they're gonna put her from transferring schools, they're gonna put her at the bottom of the pay scale, which was like something around like $30,000 again for like 30 to 40. And I mean, this is an educator who is brilliant and fantastic and has such a deep passion for students. So that's like another example of like, How is this possible? And I also feel though, like with everything that you just said, it reminds me of the box. I always knew I was a multi passionate person, like you talk about this all the time. So I jumped around a lot like from school to school, like I started, you know, special education resource or insurance Academy then ended up teaching in Belize, like doing a homeschool cooperative. And I read recently an article to that someone was like, instead of looking at jumping around for educators and being like, Oh, they didn't stay in the same place. For so long, we should be valuing innovative educators who are also trying to find sustainable spots, because I think that's also part of it. You're constantly like, what, where's the next spot because maybe this would be better, maybe I'll be maybe this will more aligned with what I need, right? Like, but like, we look at a lot of like, you know, districts etc. Look at someone's resume that has that they're so boxed in, they don't see this innovation, they don't see this, like drive for reimagining what it means to be an educator, what teaching, you know, what teaching can truly look like? Instead, they're like, Well, why didn't you stay at your job for 10 to 20? years? So loud? Like that's like, what's coming up for me with?

LILY: Absolutely. I totally agree with jumping around in careers, like, I think is great. Like, it shows me like you're saying, like, you want to try to find something that fits and like you're constantly evolving and learning. This reminds me and this is a side note of like, what we heard on a network call recently, somebody asked me about a gap in employment. I also feel like, that's also completely 100%. Fine. Like I think both these are very outdated to think that a gap in employment or like jumping around to different jobs is a bad thing, like a gap in employment means that maybe you were taking care of a loved one, you know, maybe you were needed to be a caretaker, maybe you needed a mental health break, maybe you had an opportunity to like take a sabbatical, whatever it is, like, that's amazing, and acknowledges you again, as a whole human. And so I think again, just like reframing both of those things.

APRIL: Yes. And also, then it makes me think of how we know that teaching is a female dominated, current dominated current, like career pathway, this is what it is. So how would we do the same thing? In a male dominated field? Like, would we really be like, Oh, my goodness, you moved from the program director to the CEO of this new ad tech company, and started this thing and then found something better? Like, would we be having the same conversation?

LILY: No we wouldn't. I mean, we would be like, “Oh, he's ambitious, you know.” I think so many of the issues surrounding being a teacher are like issues surrounding being a woman. And so not like, not separating those. And I think when you look at it through that lens that can be really illuminating. And so I do want to move to like solutions, because I don't want to stay in the negative for too long, because I do want to move to like the light. But I want to also just bring up like just a little bit more of the realities that I've been thinking of: one is just like school shootings, and not being safe as a teacher, like literally putting your life on the line. And having that somehow being like, ignored, or like swept under the rug. I know, we had a teacher in one of our courses several years ago, who is an older music teacher, and she had just come back from a training on how to use a firearm in her classroom, and was so distraught over this, like rightfully so. And so just acknowledging that that's another layer, also of just like, all the things that teachers have to deal with. And then I think just the perpetual like being put down, not having your thoughts or your opinions or your experiences or your expertise, truly valued, whether that's by families, community, members, administrators. And of course, there are people who do value teachers expertise, but you know, it's this perpetual idea that, like, everybody can tell teachers what to do. And I think that's so exhausting. Having not only doing the best you can in an impossible job. But then on top of that having people constantly tell you that you're not doing enough. And so really internalizing this feeling for many teachers of like, I'm never doing enough like it's me, like, I can't make this work, like what can I do more of, you can't do more of anything. Like it's not you. And so I think really detangling from that to that it's not your fault. If you're feeling burned out. And there was a great article that we shared recently that was like the premise of teacher burnout is like a falsehood, like it's like a really messed up toxic system that doesn't support teachers like teacher burnout is a myth. And so it's really not you it's that you're trying your best in this very impossible situation. That is really not going to be sustainable.

APRIL: Yes ,yes. Yes. Like, I feel like everything that you just said. And it's just it makes, it just makes, I can feel it in my body and my heart and just, you know, thinking about Yeah, like the impossible what we asked teachers to do. And it reminds me too of like, truly mental health crises among educators right now what we see in our community, what we what I saw, like instructional coaching virtually throughout the pandemic, some like very, very heartbreaking situations. And so it's like, how do we untangle ourselves from the cutesy BS solutions to something that is more like forward thinking sustainable? And actually, can we actually can like, support teachers in what they need, which is all of the above, like everything that we just spoke about? And obviously, we can't do it all at once. And so that's why we like, you know, like, we have like, like frameworks and things like that, that we think about, but it does, it truly feels sometimes, like, wow, we're being asked to do the impossible, right?

LILY: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So let's move into kind of how we can really support teachers, which as you said, like, it's not an easy answer. And I think it's an ongoing exploration that we are engaging with every day. And I think it's interesting, reflecting like, we've been working together for many years now. And working with teachers first started with our beyond the classroom course, which really was focused on showing teachers how to find work beyond the classroom. And then we started our monthly membership community knowing that like, it's a process, right, like people can take an online course, but like it is a process. And that accountability is really where the magic happens, and where that community is really where the magic happens. And so then from that, we formed our Educator Forever network, which is our monthly membership community. And we've kept adding to it as we've seen these different needs in our community. And so to me, I really see it as like this meditation on what teachers really need, and how we can support teachers to thrive. And the parts just for folks who don't know about it are really like that support getting jobs beyond the classroom, finding flexible jobs, seeing the many different possibilities. And so definitely focus on like how to get these jobs and find different career pathways or create different career pathways. But also that we want to do that in a way that's really supporting teachers not to go out and just get another job, and also still feel bad. And so we have teacher wellness circles, which you lead April, and would love for you to talk about those, we also have co working sessions that really build in that accountability to get the things done that we need to do. And we have a mix of community calls, which are really connections of people sharing struggles or successes, you know, really making connections with each other. And then also more kind of instructional calls. So trying to meet all the needs of like, what did teachers need, they need content and support to get to wherever they want to go. Before that they need to see all the many possibilities and be able to believe that their true, impossible for them. And so seeing other people at various stages in their journey, I think is really a key part of our network, that there have been people there are people who've been with us for like three or four years now. And they're doing, you know, really amazing things outside of the classroom. So for somebody to come in as a classroom teacher and be like, Oh, I see you over here teaching at a local college, I see you running your own Edtech business, you know, I see you being an instructional coach, that can really be a way of seeing all these different possibilities.

APRIL: Our network community is one of my very favorite things. And it's just it's amazing to see it evolve, using what we learn from our community members. And so I think that's like a beautiful living breathing. I keep saying ecosystem, I don't know if that works, but I like it. Because it is it's living and breathing. And it evolves as our members needs evolve. And I think something that I've learned a lot about over the last five years of working with you an educator forever is how unique each person's reality is. And so like although right like we can't be like oh, this is exactly the career pathway that's gonna resonate with you. What we can do is show you all of these amazing ideas all of these amazing ways that you can use your brilliance you can use your expertise and then boost your confidence support you guide you by connecting you with other members. And so it just makes me think of our you know, like we have our clarity the clarity piece, right like that's when we're really getting clear on what how can we use our skills like what do I need to know like What are some ways that I need to reframe it, and then the confident so like, that's what I was thinking of as you were talking to, we really, really have found that the confidence piece and the mindset shifts are so, so, so important, which is partially why we decided to start doing wellness circles, which really are sort of modeled off off of a peer support model. And that does allow us to come together and to share and to be in community and to be able to feel like we're listened to, in the same way that we're constantly expected to hold space for others in our like, especially because a lot of our members are still classroom teachers, they're still holding space for students, they're still for colleagues, etc. And then, of course, what you said about the content and the skills. It's, it's also trying to remove the fear from gaining the new skills that we need to thrive beyond the classroom. So I think that there's this like, really, there's this really deep piece of fear, and especially like you talk about so often, like the fear of taking risks, like we preach it all the time as teachers, but we are not shown in the classroom as educators that we can take risks, because often, oh, no, you didn't follow the lesson sequence, you went off track, even though it was what you needed to do to make sure that your students are represented, and to make sure that it was like cultural responsive, etc. But like it's punitive. And so like, we're trying to unpack a lot within our network, and it's a very deep and thoughtful process. So just like, you know, thinking about that as well.

LILY: Much of teaching is based on like, compliance, and also classrooms, right? And so getting rid of that mindset, you know, really comes is important when valuing your own expertise. And so I think so much of what we try and do with teachers, and like what teachers really need takes time. Like, it's not an easy fix. And it's not something of just like, I need to leave the classroom, like, yes. But also, you need to really do that detangling of like, what do you believe about education? What do you want to do? What you What do you want your impact to be? What do you want your life to be? Like, you need to do the like skills based off, like you're saying, like, how do you actually do that. And that confidence, I think, is key, like, sometimes people don't take that step to learn the skills, because it's like, once I have those skills, I have to actually do the thing. And so really being along for the process, knowing that everybody, you know, trying something new, it feels awkward, and it's not going to be great the first time and it is going to be scary. And I think that we acknowledge and see all the time, like that's not gonna go away. Like, we're always gonna feel scared to do something new, and to put ourselves out there and to use our skills in different ways. But that moment of doing something new and scary is also where learning happens. And so I always really go back to like being a classroom teacher, and seeing that within my own students, and then making mistakes as they were learning to read, you know, and feeling scared, trying to read a story out loud to me, you know, or whatever it is. And within that, like zone of proximal development, it actually is where learning happens when you feel a little bit uncomfortable. And so I think the same is true for all of us. Like, we have to acknowledge that and embrace that discomfort to and also we can make it better by doing it with other people. Like it's so much easier having this be talked about and share it and being able to go to somebody and be like, I'm feeling really nervous about posting my post on LinkedIn, but like, can you give me some encouragement? Right, that makes it so much better?

APRIL: Yes, I love that. And it does. It does. It's like that encouragement in that community is so important. And it it reminds me like I remember when I first started in curriculum development, like I had done it as a side hustle, like in 2015. But then after Harper was born, and after I took the beyond the classroom course, I realized, Oh, I could do more. And that was when like, I decided to write an email to the company where I had been like doing some contributing pieces and got more of like a solid, like, hourly, you know, weekly thing. And I had a mentor and friends that I really hold dearly, to this day. But she did say to me, she was like, but you can't like, how could you go into that? Like, how could you go into curriculum development. And I remember like it stung so much. And so the reason I'm bringing that up is because I feel like the folks who have not taken the leap beyond the classroom often still, even if they're doing other things are even if they think that they are not Baxton sometimes they still are. And so that's why it's so important to surround yourself with folks who are like, making connections with your Jillian's had been like oh, no, actually, you did design all that curriculum when you're in the classroom because you taught special ed. So no curriculum ever worked. You know what I mean? Like, and so that's, I think that is such an important piece of the puzzle. And so like you said, like thinking, Oh, I'm just going to leave the classroom, tomorrow, I'm going to be successful, this is going to be great. It's a process, and it looks different for each of us. But that's really the reason that the network has evolved is to be that like support system, and to meet you where you are, wherever that may be. So we're really like, walk, we're really like walking the walk, and like trying to model that to in our own lives. And that's what I love, too. It's like we're taking the risk, we're doing the thing we're putting ourselves out there.

LILY: Absolutely. And I think so much of it, too, is really just seeing other people doing it, you know, and see, and continuing to evolve your understanding for each of us, as you're saying it's like, individualized of what we want to do. And I don't think it's like a journey that ends. You know, I think it's a continual exploration of like, what feels good to me right now, what's working? What's my financial reality? Like? What do I want to do with my time, like, all the questions are always evolving, because we're always evolving, hopefully. And so, you know, I don't think it's necessarily like, and then I get this job, and then it's done, right? Like, it's always acknowledging and figuring out what that next step is for you. And I would say the other part of really, truly supporting teachers, I think goes back to what we talked to at the beginning, about the beginning of like, all the things that are not working in schools, teachers are the ones who need to change that in all sorts of ways. And so ideally, rather than, you know, going and driving Uber to make ends meet, like, ideally, you're doing a job that really supports other teachers, or changes curriculum to make it more relevant and engaging, or really support students or reimagine some part of education, and really tries to make the whole thing better. Because I think I always hear like literally everything I ever post on social media, there's somebody being like, oh, shouldn't teachers like just be paid more? And it's like, yes, of course, like, Absolutely, of course, I would do that in a second if I had the control to do that. But like, in my 20 years in education, salary scales have gone up very incrementally. And so I think there's some part of this was like, we can't wait for this whole toxic system to change. Like, we really need to be the ones that are starting to change it from all the different directions.

APRIL: Yes. And so it's like, we can fight for changes that policy level, we can do all these things. But what do teachers need now? Is that is I lost? I just find it so interesting. Like the the folks that are constantly like, Oh, yes, but we need to do X, Y, or Z. Yes, we can still fight for that, while also acknowledging that so many folks that we work with need to see changes within a year, they need to do this, there's so many different, you know, ways to approach it. And again, going back to like, there's not one easy, clean solution, but we can attack the problem from all sides, right? Like we can make it a multi layered, you know, multi tiered system of support for educators.

LILY: Yes, good one. Absolutely. Well, I mean, either go really, really thinking about what we can change right now. And what we can change globally. And that all of it is a process and a process that we need to engage in. And I think one of the best things we can do is help brilliant educators stay involved in education. That doesn't mean that like, if you feel like you just cannot work in education anymore that you need to but like, hopefully, then you'll still advocate for teachers, you know, or maybe you'll do a little volunteering in schools or like, whatever feels good to you. But I think there are so many teachers that feel like, well, I can't be a teacher anymore. What can I do, you can do all sorts of things in education, using your education background, and really changing those things that didn't work for you. And so I think that can be also really empowering and enlightening to see that there are so many paths in education, like you don't have to give up on being an educator if you've decided to leave the classroom.

APRIL: Yes, it's so empowering. And oh, for me, that was like such an empowering realization because it is it's part of your heart. When you feel like something needs to change, but you're not sure what it is. And you feel like that might be like I need to just be done with this or like, you know, with your children like being in the classroom right now with two kids like I just cannot it's just so overwhelming because you're just never there's never time right? There's never time. And so I think that realizing that is so so empowering and so important. And it always it just makes me think of like why do teachers not know this? And that's what that's where we come in, right? But it's like, oh my gosh, like there's so many different ways is that you can use your expertise. And it just takes time for you to kind of like see that yourself though? Like, you know, yes, yes. And

LILY: I think why teachers don't know this is because it's very integral to the school district to have low paid teachers, right, like low plate exploited teachers like are what keeps the machine running. And so I think a lot of times those opportunities are not talked about, like within school systems because like, yeah, if I'm getting paid $60,000 a year as a teacher, and then get offered $100,000, a year at an Edtech company, like, I'm going to take that. And so I think often we don't see those opportunities, because the system really is relying on teachers being underpaid and overworked. And so we have to really expose all the faults in that, like That's so wrong on so many levels. And so really, again, seeing and challenging yourself to see like whatever opportunities you're curious about probably exist in some form. And so really creating that pathway to figure that out and to explore that.

APRIL: Yes, I love that.

LILY: Awesome. Well, thank you so much April, it's always wonderful talking about how to truly support teachers. It is an evolving conversation, always for us to and definitely welcome all of your thoughts as well. If you're interested in checking out our network, and we'd love to have you join us. I'll put the link in the show notes, but it's learned at Educator Forever.com/network. And we have many different calls throughout the week. We have are beyond the classroom course we have an awesome jobs board and slack site for community members. And we'd love to have you join us.

APRIL: Thank you Lily. Bye.

Lily Jones