Episode 135: Trust-Based Observations with Craig Randall
Craig Randall is the developer and author of “Trust-Based Observations.” He has spent the last 30+ years in education, working as a counselor, coach, teacher, and principal. Now, Craig spends the majority of his time training school leaders all over the globe in the trust-based observation system, transforming the world of teacher observations to a model of trust and support that fosters growth mindsets and teaching innovation.
In our discussion, Craig dives into his educator journey, going from teaching to administration. He also criticizes teacher evaluation frameworks like Danielson and Marzano, citing research showing they decrease teacher efficacy. Our conversation will really make you think about evaluations.
Topics Discussed:
How his mentor, Warren Aller, influenced his approach to teaching
The importance of unannounced 20-minute observations
The benefits of a strengths-based approach
Resources mentioned:
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Read the transcript for this episode:
Welcome to Educator Forever, where we empower teachers to innovate education. Join us each week to hear stories of teachers expanding their impacts beyond the classroom and explore ways to reimagine teaching and learning.
Craig Randall is the developer and author of Trust-Based Observations. He has spent the last 30+ years in education, working as a counselor, coach, teacher, and principal. Now, Craig spends the majority of his time training school leaders all over the globe in the trust-based observation system, transforming the world of teacher observations to a model of trust and support that fosters growth mindsets, teaching innovation, and a school-wide culture of trust. In addition, Craig speaks at conferences, is working on a follow-up book, and hosts the 20 minutes of teaching brilliance podcast, where he and some of the amazing teachers he observes engage in meaningful dialogue about what makes for good teaching and learning. Welcome, Craig, so nice to have you here.
Craig Randall
Thanks, Lily. I'm grateful for the opportunity.
Lily Jones
So I always start with the same question, which is to tell us about your journey as an educator in whatever way you would like to.
Craig Randall
It's pretty eclectic. To be honest. I started out as an elementary school counselor in a rural community that was in the timber industry during the Dark Ages of when all that was fading, and boy, lots of kids with problems, working as a counselor there. Then I spent seven years working like right at on a base that were in a district where there's a big military base, and then a year as a middle school counselor working in the classroom where all the kids had the severe behavior disability, and I took a fairly major detour, because most of us coach, or many of us coach, and I detoured into college basketball coaching for seven years, three years as an assistant at a division three school, and four years as a as a head coach at a junior college. And just cool, like something was missing on the making a difference in lives. And that led to teaching at an international school, and taught kindergarten and and up through high school, PE and health. And there the elementary principal said, Craig, I think you'd make a great principal, and I thought the dark side never but then I was flattered, really, that, that somebody thought that, and living overseas I had to before really online was normal. A program at Western Washington was willing to work with me, and really it was their word that started me on the path, because that's where I met my mentor, and he's the one that said you need to be in classes every day, observing, supporting, helping teachers grow. And then it evolved. I became an assistant principal at a school in Korea, and continued my journey in the Middle East, and finished up my international school journey in Brazil, great place to live. And then came home and ended up going to a coffee shop and turning this thing that I sort of accidentally developed into a book. And now I train school leaders all over the world in trust based observations.
Lily Jones
That's amazing. I love hearing all the parts of this journey. I didn't know that the college basketball coaching my kids are big basketball fans. They'll be very impressed. International teaching like that. All sounds so interesting, and I appreciate just hearing the path that brought you here. And you mentioned that you ended up with this idea of trust based observations. Can you talk to us about, like, what are they and why did you decide to focus on this?
Craig Randall
Yeah, well, I think first we need to talk about what we've been doing the last 25 years, which started with well intentioned, with Danielson converting her framework into teacher evaluation, and then Marzano and other people creating basically different versions of the same thing and but the research shows two major studies have come out, Annenberg Foundation and Gates Foundation, big study saying it's not improving teaching and learning, it actually increases teacher dissatisfaction. And then there's a guy in the UK, man O'Leary, whose research says, and from interviewing over 4000 teachers, that it causes harm. And Chief, Chief, like the one that hits me the hardest is it decreases teachers sense of self efficacy. And if we talk about collective teacher efficacy being the highest on Hattie's statistic ratings, whatever it is, then decreasing teacher efficacy isn't going to really help us and so really trust based observations. I didn't know this information and go, Aha, I'm going to solve the problem. I am not that smart, but I just from what I learned with my mentor, Warren aller, and what just kept developing and evolving naturally. Really, when I was in Brazil, the one of the principals there said, Craig, you need to protect your work. And I was really not aware of what he was talking about. And then he said, You created this thing? And I was like, Oh, I guess I did. So really, what trust based observations is, is it to continue a series of 20 minute unannounced observations using a manageable template that only has nine areas of pedagogy on it? Recently? Research says more than 10, and it becomes a tick box exercise, and we're not really seeing the teaching and with a strengths based lens. And so we look for what we see that's good, and it might not be the highest level of good, but if I'm seeing it, and then we really work diligently in the reflective conversation to build trust. It sounds weird because of the way we think of observations to think of like the follow up conversations, where you build trust, but when you change the format, and it's about strengths, and it's about asking them about practice, and you take these specific actions that build the trust, all of a sudden it changes for them, and they're so much more open to growing and changing, as opposed to the traditional way, which causes them to turtle up and be less afraid to take risks. And so really, the goal is for us to build enough trust so that the teachers we can observe them, have them try something new. That's a disaster, but they're not going to freak out, and they know we're going to say, love it, that you're trying something new, and then what happens? They'll keep trying new things, and we will improve. It's pretty simple, really.
Lily Jones
It's amazing though. I mean, I love hearing about it, and I absolutely, you know, could have predicted what you said about the Danielson and Marzano frameworks, you know, like, again, like, as you had well intentioned, like, helpful in some ways. I know when I left the classroom, you know, 13 years ago, I did some coaching, and I used those frameworks, and I had the tick boxes and things like that that I had to do for our district. And it was just kind of like a standardized test. You know, the teachers really were just, like, checking it off, to check it off, not for real improvement in their practice and not really for support. It didn't feel so supportive. And so I appreciated particularly what you said of starting with what's working. And I recently joined a writing group for, like, personal writing stuff. And I've done various writing groups over the years, and some have been more like critique, and they always feel kind of intense and all these things. But with this writing group, the rule is that for the first few meetings, at least, you only get positive feedback, yeah? And it's so freeing to be like, Oh, I'm just looking for what I like. You know, people are telling me what I like. Keep doing this, and then, you know, after a couple meetings, we add in a little bit of constructive feedback, of like, Hey, have you tried this? Or maybe you can do this? And I found on the student side that to be so different and so helpful.
Craig Randall
That's so aligned to what we do, actually. So Brene Brown talks about the connection between trust vulnerability and risk taking. She says, when we vulnerability is too high, people are afraid to take risks, and the way you solve that is by building trust. And she has this analogy of thinking about all these actions that you take, and each action is a marble, and you put a marble in a jar, and it takes a while to fill that jar. And so we actually this part of the system is, and there's exceptions to the rule, but as part of the system in general, we wait to even begin to offer a suggestion until the fourth visit, because that trust isn't there yet, and it makes a big difference.
Lily Jones
Yeah, absolutely. And so going along with that, I'm just interested in this whole idea of trust and like it is something that I think we all can say that we value, but also it can feel kind of amorphous. And so how do you think people can build trust?
Craig Randall
I'm so glad you said that like I, Lily, I bet you see this. You'll see on LinkedIn, social media, or whatever, these great little one line quote about relate, the importance of relationships and the importance of trusting. And I see those quotes, and really I'm of two minds. Mind one is, yup, my in two is, these don't mean anything, because they don't tell you how to do it. It is about how and really it's a continuous series of actions backed up by words, and I mean words backed up by actions that are consistent and supportive in nature. And so identifying strengths is a great way to build trust. Having regular interactions is a great way to build trust. And we see you once every three to four weeks. So those give us those opportunities. But like, we even say, like when we talk about those marbles, like we say, the first trust marble is we have the reflective conversation in the teacher's room when we say, whether you're 717, or 37 getting called to the principal's office feels like getting called to the principal's office so you don't feel safe, so it doesn't build trust. When we come to your room, we ask permission, hey, is now a good time that little courtesy builds trust we sit beside you, not across from you, because research says when I sit across from you, that magnifies that hierarchical difference, which diminishes trust when we sit beside you. Feel safer, and it's just it goes on and on and on, but there's just these series of actions that we do, and even when we get to the point where we're going to offer a suggestion, we ask permission to offer the suggestion, and that courtesy and that choice, even though they always say yes, builds trust. Or when we offer a suggestion, it we're so as administrators, there's a tendency to have an enormous hypocrisy between the way we expect teachers to get feedback to students and the way that we traditionally give it to teachers. And so oftentimes we'll say, hey, I want you to get better at formative assessment. Okay, and that's it, or here's an article, and we would never say to a third grader, hey, those times tables need work. Here's a here's a fact sheet. I'll be back in a month. And so we try and strive to provide the exact same support that we would give to a student in our actions with teachers, and so when we're being consistent and modeling from the top down until I'm just comfortable with that language, sure that builds trust. And all of those things together build trust.
Lily Jones
I appreciate all those examples too, because I think it really to me, comes across that it's the mindset of the person who's coming in and giving the feedback too, of like having the intention that I'm here to build a relationship and to coach from this place of trust. I think you can see it play out in all those different actions. And I appreciated what you said too about modeling in a way that we expect teachers to act with students. I think so much of our I mean, I taught kindergarten. I'm like so much of our problems could be solved. We all, like me included, took these lessons that we tell little kids and then use them in our own life, so and so. I think, you know, just pointing that out too and like, we have the tools, right? We we know how to give kids really effective feedback. We know how to build positive class culture, and also we can take that learning to an adult level.
Craig Randall
Can I add something to that too? Please, do I think you hit on something by saying having the right mindset, but if we don't take one part of the traditional piece out of it, our best mindset won't help us, and that's the rating of pedagogy, because the research shows when I rate pedagogy that you don't trust me as a boss anymore, and you play it safe and don't take risks. And so we take that part out, and we still evaluate professionalism, planning, how I get along with others, and my mindset towards growth, but I I've seen and I hear principals all the time. Will say, but I like, I do all these super nice things, and I'm and in the reflective conversation, I just tell them how great they are. When we have that rating piece built into the process. It doesn't matter how kind, empathetic, how well intentioned I am, because in the teacher's mind, they're not hearing anything positive you're saying, because the only thing they're thinking is, What's my score, What's my score, What's my score. And they're so worried about that that all your nice efforts fall on deaf ears, not your fault. System's fault. Again, well intentioned, they work against what we're going to do.
Lily Jones
That makes a lot of sense. And again, it's like so similar to teach you to the test, and kids who are like, Oh, what's my score, What's my score, my What's my score, you know, these tools, like you're saying, that are very well intentioned, like, we want to give feedback on all sorts of things, and ideally, feedback is a gift. But I think that, you know, I work with a lot of teachers who are feeling really burned out in the world of education, and one of the ways they feel burned out is that they don't feel like they're treated like professionals. And so I think, in a profession where you already feel so questioned and kind of beaten down, often to then have an observation that's focused on, like questioning your pedagogy and like all your instructional moves in this way I can imagine, and I felt this as a teacher, you know that it just feels defeating. And so I appreciated what you said too, about like, having an opportunity to make mistakes and try something out, and just kind of having it be more free of like, let's try this new thing and see how it goes, and trusting teachers in their professionalism and in their professional growth to be able to learn through that process.
Craig Randall
If as a teacher, I know you can see me making a mistake, and then I'm going to be told that I love if you were trying something new, it doesn't always work out the way we planned, but that's how we get better. Oh my gosh, now I have freedom. I can be creative. Yes, because there's so much on education that can get better, we know it. I sure don't have all the answers, but I know tons of teachers have answers, but we have to create the the the culture that allows for them to have that psychological safety, to. Go, Yeah, I'm gonna go for it. We'll see what happens.
Lily Jones
Mm, hmm, yes, absolutely. I mean, that's like, what I want for everyone, right? Teachers, kids, grown ups. Like, how amazing is that? And how much innovation do we see? You know, when that freedom to explore and not always have it be right, or always have it be scored or graded or assessed, comes in.
Craig Randall
It all matters.
Lily Jones
So I know you said you kind of found yourself building this approach, and not really knowing that you were building an approach, and then sitting down and writing a book. And I know you have your trust based observations book. Can you tell us about what's the book about? And I'm also curious just about the process you went through writing this book.
Craig Randall
I mean, the process the book is the system, and it's really everything I learned along the way. It deals with the research. I know so much more research now, even than I did when I wrote it, but it really just details, like, what were the problems with observations? What are my own experiences with it all the way through? This is how you do it, at least the best I can. You can never put it on paper, manifested exactly as what it looks like in action. So really, that's the book. I've been really lucky. I've, like, had Hattie and full on, and Carol Dweck have all endorsed it. So that was super exciting. But the writing process, Writing is hard and so and I, like, I was talking to a guy recently, and he said, Yeah, I just locked myself away for the weekend. I say, I'm going to get 20,000 words. And I'm like, How the hell do you do that? And it doesn't work for me that way. So everyone's process is different. For me, it's like every day when I wrote this, I went to a coffee shop Monday through Friday, like and I guaranteed myself five hours I can't write for eight hours, but I went there and it was sometimes noisy. It didn't matter. You just zero in. And some of it was research, because backing in and, boy, combining research with your own words is super complicated to do, but just sticking with it every day. Sometimes I'd get a paragraph, sometimes I'd get multiple, multiple pages. I never had 1000s, 10,000 words in a day. I know how those people do that. But just persisting and persisting and persisting, really. And that was my process.
Lily Jones
Cool, yeah, it's so neat. I mean, it's like, it's hard work, yeah, I think it's worth it, right? Like, I'm sure you learned so much through that grappling process, too.
Craig Randall
Oh, man. And there's, like, the, you know, words, buzz words, but that flow state, for lack of a better way to describe it, or like, I like, sometimes it'll be just focusing on, like, editing one paragraph, and you're just, you're in there, and you look up and you blink, and it's like, Well, what happened? It was a half an hour. And that's kind of cool when you have that, and you like you're so zoned in. I mean that that is a pretty amazing feeling, even it's not a joyful feeling, but it's, it's something that's Oh....
Lily Jones
Yeah. yes, absolutely. And it's like taking this thing that you were using and developing and then kind of putting it all together, right? And then being able to say,...
Craig Randall
It's easy to do it, it's harder to put it on paper.
Lily Jones
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so I'm also curious about, you know you went from being a teacher to being an administrator to doing trust based observations, and now, you know, starting your own thing, and we're creating your own book and having your own approach. What have you learned about yourself through this process?
Craig Randall
Well, persistence, writing a book is an exercise in persistence, starting something that's transformative, Lily different than everything else that's out there, and realizing the time it takes to change, to cause people to change, to cause people to embrace it. And you get knocked down a lot, and it's a bit not self pitying at all, but it's a bit of digging versus Goliath and so. And I'm like, off times. I'm like, honestly, with this new administration, I had a Teach for America contract all lined up for one of the offices, which I thought could lead to all of the offices, and boom, all that PD funding has gone away. What a bummer. Devastating. Like, okay, okay, I got to get back to it. And so you just, you persist. For sure, it evolves. Like, one of the things that I am most proud about is that every single because, really, I'm training school leaders every week on site at their school, modeling, practicing by doing it. And every single week somebody will say something that grows trust based observations. And so like being open to that, and I think the first time somebody suggested a change is like that, maybe the third week I did a training, I was like, Oh, my form. I can't change my form. This is my baby. And but now I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's so much better. That's so much better. Oh, what a great idea. And so like being open to. To to growth, and not only being open to growth, but being open to like, my own suggestive feedback from others is like, now I'm just like, Well, what do you see? What do you know? And it just so that it's a living, breathing thing, that it's not a static thing. Wow, I'm and so the learning along the way, and then getting to experience that, those are some things that that that some of my learnings, I also learned that I don't like the business person, like calling myself a business owner, and so I can't wait till I get to the point where I can hand all that stuff off to someone.
Lily Jones
I understand. And so for teachers who maybe have something in their mind, you know, maybe they have a practice that they've been doing that's unique to them, and they're thinking about kind of codifying this way of like, maybe I am developing something that I can share with other people. What advice would you give to them?
Craig Randall
That is a great question. Make sure it's your passion. Like, like, Hey, I kind of want to like that. I don't think that gets it like, like, now this is, this is my mission for the rest of my life. I won't retire. I might cut back at some point. So I think you have to have that like full drive and belief that this is it and and you have to be persistent. I think you have to be practical and smart and decide what's the right time to to do this. So I want to put all my bags and eggs in this basket. Is it? Is it too early or not? I also want to say, make it substantive, I'm going to say there are tons of consultants out there now, and I believe most are well intended. I believe some of the stuff being peddled, oh, I'm careful with my language here feels like fluff, and it's that you go to some of these sessions, and it's that little 60 minute endorphin high of a keynote. But what are you coming away with after that there and look, if that's your thing, okay, but like, what are you doing that's really having impact? That's really like, look, I'm every single week I hear teachers like, okay, not every week, but I get tears of joy because it's so different than what they're at. I hear teachers every week saying, I'm already thinking about what to get better at, just from their first round. I have principals saying, oh my gosh, I'm finally moving the needle. And so I just, I just want to make sure whatever we're doing, it's substantive.
Lily Jones
I mean, I think teacher PD, and educator PD is so flawed, right? Like, it's like, it's a joke sometimes that teachers are just like, oh, another consultant. And I think because of some of the things like you're saying, right, like it's, it seems disconnected sometimes, and it seems like it's like, you're saying not super practical or able to be implemented in the classroom. And I think that, again, going back to the things we know just about teaching and learning for all people, when it's personalized is when it's powerful. And so what I appreciate about your approach is, like, it's so personalized, right, that not all the teachers are going to be working on the same things. And so I think coming in it with this acceptance of the nuance, you know, or embracing of the nuance of it, that everyone's going to have a different path, likely sets it apart from PD, that's just like, hey, you know, here's this approach. So I'm going to teach you, and there are four parts, and everyone has to do the same four parts, and that's how we do it. Like done,
Craig Randall
You know, just want to add something to that PD piece, and then I want to add one more piece of advice. And so we, in the second year of the model, we actually start tap, because we start to know who our in house experts are, because we're seeing you so much. So we tapped into those in house experts, asked them to facilitate one year's worth of PD in whichever of those nine areas that we asked them to because they're so strong with the goal of building mastery, and we have a list of what mastery is in that. And then at the beginning of the next year, we let the teachers self assess and choose which one they want to do, and they get to work on it every year. And then in the reflective conversations in year two, we had another question, talking about your progress on this new area you're working on. And when people complain about PD, they complain that it's one size fits all, and really there's no teacher autonomy, and then they're one offs, and we feel like we've solved all of those things all at once with that. So I'm going to add that, and then I want to add one more piece that I think is really important to you. If you're going to go and do your own thing, money can't be your driver. Your driver has to be making a difference in the world of education and improving it.
Lily Jones
Yes, I absolutely agree. And I think that goes back to like the passion, right? It needs to be something that you feel passionate about, and you don't have to know it all, you know. I think one of the things I've realized in my journey beyond the classroom and life, you know, it's like, we often figure out what we're passionate about by doing things. And sometimes we try something, we're like, yeah, maybe it's not that, you know. And then we try something, we're like, yeah, that's closer, you know. And so I think also being open to, if you don't know right away, like, this one thing that I'm super passionate about, and this is the thing I'm going for, that's okay. Did you, like, allow yourself some time and space to figure it out, but before really hunkering down, getting clear on what you really want to create and why.
Craig Randall
I wasn't a principal till I was in my 40s, and I sure as hell never wanted to be a principal. And I mean, you just never know, yeah, yeah,
Lily Jones
absolutely. Well, it's been such a pleasure talking with you, Craig, can you tell folks how they can connect with you?
Craig Randall
Yeah, for sure. Um, we have a website, trust based.com just like it sound, they can email me, Craig, at trust based.com I'm on all the social whatevers at my handle is usually at trust based Craig and so, yeah, any of those ways work.
Lily Jones
Great, wonderful. Thanks so much.
Craig Randall
Thanks, Lily, bye.
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